Leaps & Bownes: Emma Bownes’ 25 years in the biz
As programmer for The O2 – the world’s busiest arena for more than a decade – Emma Bownes is arguably the most popular arena booker internationally, thanks to her enthusiasm, hard graft, and an ability to solve multiple problems all while flashing that infectious smile. Now, as she celebrates 25 years in the business, IQ quizzes Emma on her path to the top, as well as the philosophies that have shaped her success.
Born in Peterborough, England, Emma was raised on the outskirts of the city, as her parents moved around with their jobs. “Mum was originally an accident and emergency nurse, before opening a retirement home,” she says. “Dad worked in change management for Thomas Cook, meaning that he was in New York from time to time.” But her parents’ occasional absence for work reasons introduced her to the wonders of live entertainment.
While younger brother Tom has since followed her into live music (as a promoter at Live Nation), there was no family history in the business. However, Emma knew from an early age exactly what she wanted to do. “When you ask people what they want to do for a living, they say, ‘I want to be a footballer,’ or ‘I want to be a ballet dancer.’ Nobody ever says, ‘I want to be a band programmer.’ But my parents’ families were both from Sheffield, and I’d be taken by my grandparents to working men’s clubs when I was a kid.
“There were a few working men’s clubs we used to go but the format was always similar: there’d be bingo, there’d be a turn, and there’d sometimes also be a fish man,” she laughs. “But the turn was what caught my imagination. I remember an act called Betty Bonk, who sang about stabbing her husband and being in prison. My sister looked at my nan and told her she wanted to be a singer. And I looked at granddad and asked who decided who played on stage. He told me it was the committee, so I said to him, ‘I want to be on the committee.’ I was only eight years old, but ever since then, it’s all I’ve ever wanted to do.”
Having identified her dream job, ten years later Emma enrolled at the University of Hull and instantly ingratiated herself with the campus entertainment committee. “Shortly after I arrived in Hull and became part of the entertainment committee, the entertainment manager left, so I applied and got the job.”
Indeed, Emma’s activities also saw her booking events off-campus. “I co-promoted a drum & bass night called Future Methods. We had everybody – Hype, Grooverider, Goldie, Ed Rush & Optical – it was brilliant: it taught me how to do on-the-ground promoting.”
“I did the maths at the end of the gig, I realised I’d lost money. But it was amazing because who gets to have a bit of a go until they get it right?”
As she embarked on a career that’s been punctuated by moments where she simply presented herself to new employers and won them over, her time in Hull is among those she looks back upon most fondly.
“I don’t even know if those kinds of jobs exist anymore, but I just loved it,” she says. “When you’re the ents manager, you just do it all. You sit there with a calendar when you start in June, you book all the freshers’ gigs and all the club nights and all the things that freshers might go out and get drunk to, like a Halloween party or Jason Donovan or Chesney Hawkes.”
It also provided a steep learning curve. “I remember promoting this gig with a band called Rialto, and I paid them about £800. It went on sale to the students on a Monday, for the show on the Friday, and tickets were literally £2 or £3. It sold out, but when I did the maths at the end of the gig, I realised I’d lost money. But it was amazing because who gets to have a bit of a go until they get it right? And that went for everything I did – booking the band, designing the posters, sticking the posters up, sitting in the box office and selling the tickets. I’d be there for the load-in, I’d be there at load-out, and I’d pay the band. It was just the best fun.”
A New Mission
Emma fell in love with the city of Hull and extended her time there as much as she could. “I was there for eight years in total,” she recalls. “But I realised that if I didn’t move away, I’d wake up one day aged 40 without having done anything different.”
Together with her then flatmate, who had reached a similar conclusion, they moved to London to pursue loftier ambitions. “Luckily, I was on this ents managers’ email chat group where we’d swap information: ‘I booked Atomic Kitten, and it did this many tickets’ – that kind of thing. Someone posted that there was a vacancy at Mission Control, so I applied and got the job.”
“What I discovered was if you call someone and sound cheerful, rather than stressed, it’s a lot easier to have a conversation”
Placed in charge of the agency’s university bookings, it was an ideal stepping stone and also introduced her to the likes of Gary Howard, whose clients these days account for a healthy chunk of bookings at The O2.
“Mission Control had a roster of mostly garage, which I really liked – Artful Dodger, Solid Crew, DJ Luck & MC Neat – and they also did a lot of pop acts like Jason Donovan and Atomic Kitten. So I basically booked their roster for universities.”
Despite landing on her feet in London, Emma admits to finding it tough. “It was a culture shock,” she states. “I didn’t find it easy to start with, but there were some nice people at Mission Control who just tried to show me how it all worked. They taught me how to find acts, how to sign acts, and how to book gigs.”
Nevertheless, after a year, working for the agency was losing its appeal.
“I just wanted to go back to working in a venue,” explains Emma. “I didn’t mind the selling aspect. In fact, randomly, one of my student summer jobs was selling windows – cold-calling people. Because I’m a naturally cheerful person, what I discovered was if you call someone and sound cheerful, rather than stressed, it’s a lot easier to have a conversation… that job taught me things that I’ve used ever since.”
Pacific Career Path
Having made up her mind that venues were her happy place, Emma found herself at Ocean in Hackney. “It opened in June 2001, I started in June 2002, and it shut on 4 December 2004. The only reason I know that is because I, like many people who worked there, absolutely loved the place.
“Being on the board of the Music Venue Trust, I meet people all the time who are in love with their small venues. At Ocean, we all put absolutely everything we could into it: we were there every hour, for the most random of shows.”
“I think they forgot they’d hired me because when I turned up, the theatre dog literally had a bigger desk than me”
Leaning on her experience, Emma concentrated on booking garage and reggae acts, “like Heartless Crew and Sean Paul.” She adds, “We had lots of shows that were promoted by first-time promoters who needed a lot of hand holding because a lot of things could, and invariably would, go wrong.
“Ocean was such a lovely venue, but the problem was people thought that it was hard to get to. That sounds ridiculous now, but promoters used to tell us, ‘No, we want to play in central London.’ If Ocean had opened a few years later, it would probably still be going strong because Hackney’s obviously gentrified and cool now.”
Ever the pragmatist, when Ocean’s shutters came down permanently, Emma wrote to the neighbouring Hackney Empire theatre. “It was run by a guy called Roland Muldoon, and in my letter, I asked if he could please consider me for anything that came up.”
It worked, “But I think they forgot they’d hired me because when I turned up, the theatre dog literally had a bigger desk than me, and after a while, I could see that they didn’t need me, so I started looking for something else.”
Next port of call was the Mean Fiddler Group where she worked as a promoter for the Jazz Café, The Garage, and Borderline. “I did that for a while, and then became the in-house booker at the Kentish Town Forum,” she tells IQ.
Hello, Wembley
In 2007, Mean Fiddler was acquired by MAMA Group, and Emma’s contacts alerted her to unsettling news. “The guy I was going to report to offered my job to two other people before he even met me. Those people both phoned me to ask if I was leaving.”
“I thought I’d blown it because I’d mainly been used to booking small venues, and I wasn’t confident I’d be any good at arena level”
Once again, her proactive writing skills came to the fore. “I sent [Live Nation UK President] Paul Latham an email to point out what I’d achieved at the Forum – it had lost money every year until I’d taken over booking. I made my case and asked if there was anything at Live Nation I could help with. Within a couple of days, Paul called and said, ‘I need you to go to speak to Wembley Arena.’ It turned out their booking manager, Katie Musham, had just moved to The O2.”
Her Wembley interview did not go as smoothly as she hoped, though.
“I was promoting a gig at the Borderline the night before with a band called the 1990s, and it was sold out, so I wanted to be there,” says Emma. “As usual, I sort of ended up doing everything, including running the door, where I had a hand stamp for everyone who came in.
“Anyway, the interview was at 10am with [GM] Peter Tudor, but for some reason I turned up an hour early – they must’ve thought I was really keen – and I thought I’d blown it because I’d mainly been used to booking small venues, and I wasn’t confident I’d be any good at arena level.
“By the end of the meeting, I really wanted the job, even though I felt I’d messed up because I hadn’t prepared enough for the interview. And then, as I was leaving, I saw these hand stamps all down my arm. They must have thought I was batshit crazy.”
Nonetheless, the job was Emma’s, and when Tudor left for pastures new a few months later, new general manager John Drury, whose background was in venue booking, took the reins.
“I’ve been at The O2 14 years now – my longest job by a long shot – and the team has grown quite a lot since I arrived here”
“John was great – he really helped me develop as a programmer,” reveals Emma. “He’d copy me in on emails with promoters he had a relationship with, and then he’d hand on that relationship to me; he’d do the deal in the first year, but then I’d take over to allow him to do all his GM duties.
“That really stuck with me, and it’s something I’ve also tried to do in my time at AEG – I’ll introduce people in the programming team to promoters before handing them over. It can be quite tough because there are people you’ve dealt with for 20 years who you really like and don’t necessarily want to stop speaking to. But ultimately, it benefits everyone, and I learned that from John Drury.
“The other thing about John is his passion and enthusiasm for the job. I was at Wembley when The O2 opened, and clients like Disney and WWE and loads of touring acts were leaving us for The O2, so we had a difficult time. But in 2009, we started to focus on acts that were maybe playing a couple of Brixtons, and we could offer them that next step to a 10,000-ticket gig. We had some great shows – Kasabian, Arctic Monkeys, Green Day, Fleetwood Mac. It was a fight to get them, but whenever something confirmed I’d stick my head around John’s office door, and he was always just so pleased. He was brilliant to work with.”
Greenwich Mean Time
In 2010, Emma brought her Wembley days to a temporary end when she accepted a new role as programming manager at The O2. However, three years later, she was promoted to arena programming director, placing both The O2 and Wembley Arena under her remit.
“I’ve been at The O2 14 years now – my longest job by a long shot – and the team has grown quite a lot since I arrived here,” she observes.
Indeed, for the past five years, Emma has been AEG’s vice president venue booking for The O2 and Europe, adding oversight for the likes of Hamburg’s Barclays Arena, the Uber Arena in Berlin, and the neighbouring Uber Eats Music Hall.
“The venues in Germany have their own bookers, so I don’t get involved in the detail that I do at The O2, where I’m involved a lot more on the diary,” she explains. “Where I can help is when we’re asked for avails at The O2, I can push tours to consider adding Hamburg or Berlin to the routing.”
“I’m not sure how we got through Covid… We’d be rescheduling the same shows three, four, five times”
Highlighting the complexity of the programming process, Emma reveals that in a year when The O2 hosted 180 events, someone tracked 4,000 ‘pencilled’ dates during the process of producing a final diary for that year.
And, of course, those figures multiplied during the Covid years. Looking back on those troubled times, Emma says, “I left the venue like most people, thinking we were going to be closed for six weeks – and even that was tough to contemplate, as I had to home school two kids as well.
“There were essentially five bookers working on the diary at that time: me, Christian [D’Acuña], Marc [Saunders], Anna [Parry], and also Jo [Peplow Revell] who oversaw the corporate and special events. The fact we were no longer in the same room massively complicated things. In normal times, our jobs are a continual information swap in the office [with all of us] on the phone with promoters fighting over the same dates.
“I’m not sure how we got through Covid. Obviously, we had that initial wave where we needed to reschedule everything in the first three months, so we’d all be on the phone with each other to sort that out. But then it just kept going and going, and we’d be rescheduling the same shows three, four, five times.”
With The O2 operating as a makeshift Covid training centre, the venue remained a hub for Londoners, albeit for all the wrong reasons, while the programming team battled to find suitable new dates for hundreds of postponed shows.
“In the midst of the pandemic, we realised there would inevitably be a period of time when the venue would reopen, and we’d face a potential big gap in the diary,” says Emma. “So we came up with the idea of creating a series of events so that when the doors were allowed to reopen, we’d have something ready to go.”
“The best show I’ve ever booked is Monty Python. It was the most exciting show reveal I’ve ever worked on”
As a result, Emma and her team programmed a series of “Welcome Back Shows”, including three nights with Wizkid, Burna Boy, Mo Gilligan’s Black British Takeover and an NHS fundraiser with Gorillaz, to kick-start London’s live music scene when the UK’s first lockdown ended in August 2021.
As emotional as those first shows back at the venue were, it’s actually some of the non-music shows that she cites as career highlights.
Four Yorkshiremen
“The best show I’ve ever booked is Monty Python,” she states. “It was the most exciting show reveal I’ve ever worked on, because when I first went to see [producer] Phil McIntyre, he wouldn’t tell me what the event was. He started asking me loads of ticketing questions while telling me that lots of different promoters were bidding on the show, and he was worried details would leak, so it was better if he didn’t tell me who the act was.
“Because I couldn’t help with his ticketing questions, I went back the next day with Paul Newman from AXS, who was able to answer everything. But Phil still wouldn’t tell us details. There was a photo of John Cleese over his shoulder, so I suggested we hold the dates under a fake name – John Cleese. And he told us under no account should we use that name.
“So, Paul and I were convinced it was Monty Python, but we swore each other to secrecy and ended up holding the dates under the fake name ‘Russell Brand and Friends.’”
Roll forward to the Monty Python launch at a London theatre. “It was one of the most exciting days of my career, because I watched all of the Monty Python guys come on stage, and everyone in the place was going nuts. And then they announced their reunion and said they were going to pull the name of the venue out of a bag – I felt physically sick, but it was just so exciting. And then the shows themselves were incredible.
“The venues in Germany are actually having their busiest year ever. Between the two Berlin venues, they’ll do well over 300 shows
More Laughs
Comedy was central to another achievement for Emma and her team when, in March 2023, they brought the Just For Laughs festival to The O2.
“A friend of mine who I used to work with at Mean Fiddler, Nick Adair, who sadly passed away, was a massive comedy guy, and he used to talk about organising a comedy festival,” says Emma. “Then one year at ILMC, Steve Homer introduced me to Scott Mantell who represents a lot of comedy acts. It was one of those conversations at the bar, where everybody’s really enthusiastic. But during Covid, Scott introduced me to Just For Laughs in Canada. I pitched the idea to them, and then Steve Homer became involved, and it ended up being a three-way co-pro between us, Just For Laughs, and AEG Presents.”
Emma’s blueprint was to take the already successful Country to Country (C2C) concept and adapt something similar for comedy. “I wanted it to have a sort of Edinburgh Festival vibe where fans could walk from one venue to another in 30 seconds. What worked really well was having a load of programming in the Spiegel tent outside the venue that sold out. And we also had 11 sold-out shows in Indigo over the weekend.”
Hopeful that The O2 can host a comedy festival again, Emma notes that the concept is one that could also be replicated in the likes of Hamburg or Berlin – again emulating the success of C2C, which this year visited Berlin, Rotterdam, London, Glasgow, and Belfast.
Not that feeding AEG’s European venues is a necessity. “The venues in Germany are actually having their busiest year ever,” she reports. “Between the two Berlin venues, they’ll do well over 300 shows. We’re lucky to have a group of people who are sharing information that benefits other venues in the group. For example, Christian [D’Acuña], whose focus is on The O2 and the AEG Presents venues, recently persuaded an agent to book a date in Hamburg.”
Indeed, she lauds senior programming director D’Acuña as the most influential colleague she’s ever had. “I don’t really have a mentor, but the most important working relationship I’ve had has been with Christian. I’ve worked with him since May 2012, and I just can’t speak highly enough of him. When he started, he was programming admin assistant and, coming from Apple, he’d never done it before. But by October 2012, I was off on maternity leave, the venue was really busy, and at one point Christian was left on his own and just had to get on with it. Ever since then, any time I have a decision to make, I always check in with him as he’s like the other half of the brain.”
“We’re in this incredible position where we get to come and work in a music venue every day and see all these incredible acts”
With dates at The O2 held as far out as 2031, Emma and her London-based team are as busy as ever, but she still finds time to be on the board of Music Venue Trust, which fits in with her general ethos about venues being more than just places that host shows.
“We’re in this incredible position where we get to come and work in a music venue every day and see all these incredible acts. But venues can be so much more than that,” she says.
“Two years ago, we began to fund schools to help them participate in Young Voices, which has now played The O2 80 times.
“But the sad truth is that not all schools can afford it, so a couple of years ago we sponsored a local school. Then last year, we sponsored two schools. And this year, it’s going to be eight schools. And now other venues have started doing it and so have companies like PRG.
“It’s a really big deal for me: you can’t just be a music venue – there’s so much more you can do, and knowing we’re making a difference to so many children and their families is just great
Balancing Act
With quarter of a century under her belt and now leading the programming team at the world’s busiest arena, as well as its sister European buildings, Emma Bownes is at the top of the game. But she believes there’s still room for improvement.
“I don’t know about personal ambitions, but I’d like to be better at just trying to balance it all,” she concludes. “It probably also sounds cheesy but trying to balance being a good parent and doing this as well as I can is tricky. You always feel like you’re in the wrong place.
“But I do feel lucky, because this company that I work for, AEG, are totally fine with me being at my children’s sports day on Wednesday afternoon, in the knowledge that I’ll be at Olivia Rodrigo on Thursday night. And the night after that. It’s the best job in the world, and I wouldn’t swap it for anything.”
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IQ 129 out now: New Bosses, Karol G, Emma Bownes
IQ 129, the latest issue of the international live music industry’s favourite magazine, is available to read online now.
In our August edition, we unveil our hotly-anticipated New Bosses 2024 list as we profile 20 of the most promising 30-and-unders in the international business.
We also go behind the scenes on Latina sensation Karol G’s record-breaking, year-long Mañana Será Bonito Tour as she takes the world by storm, while AEG’s VP Venue Programming for The O2 and Europe Emma Bownes is profiled to celebrate her 25 years in the business.
Elsewhere, IQ investigates how Las Vegas has become the hottest entertainment market in the world and take a fresh look at the contemporary Swedish live market.
Meanwhile, What’s Going On… in Malta? investigates why so many major names are suddenly heading to the small Mediterranean archipelago.
In addition, we look at the programme of panels and events at IFF 2024 in a comprehensive preview of the tenth edition of the gathering, which takes place from 24-26 September, with 1,000 booking agents and festival professionals expected to participate.
For this edition’s columns, there is commentary from Fil Palermo from Australia’s Untitled Group on the need for inclusivity in event planning, as well as Nick Bonard of Montreux Jazz Festival Media Ventures, who advises on alternative ways to market your festival brand.
As always, the majority of the magazine’s content will appear online in some form in the next four weeks.
However, if you can’t wait for your fix of essential live music industry features, opinion and analysis, click here to subscribe to IQ – or check out what you’re missing out on with the limited preview below:
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The Killers deliver record-breaking residency at The O2
The Killers sold over 105,000 tickets to their six-night residency at The O2 – the highest number for any musical act at the arena this year.
The Las Vegas-hailing band took over the 20,000-capacity London venue on 4,5,7,8,10 and 11 July as part of their Rebel Diamonds tour, celebrating their 20-year legacy.
The record-breaking residency, promoted by SJM Concerts, featured varying setlists and even included a screening of the moment England triumphed over the Netherlands in the semi-finals of the UEFA EURO 2024 on Wednesday 10 July, before The Killers launched into their biggest hit ‘Mr Brightside’.
The run concludes the UK and Ireland leg of the band’s tour, which comprised 16 arena shows (their first UK arena dates since 2017) across June and July.
The Killers are next due to perform at Fuji Rock (JP), Lollapalooza (US) and Outside Lands (US) before commencing their Hot Fuss residency in Las Vegas next month.
‘The six-night residency of The Killer at The O2 has been a phenomenal experience to be a part of,” says Matt Woolliscroft, promoter at SJM Concerts.
“Everything about the show was truly world-class”
“In the 20 years that I have been working with the band, the ‘Rebel Diamonds’ tour has seen, in my opinion, their best performances, best production and best setlists. Every night the audience reaction and energy has been incredible. The night of the Euros semi-final at The O2 was a true once in a lifetime “I was there” moment, and it was a privilege to be in the room for it. Each time they tour the UK, I am left thinking that they can’t get any better live, then the next time they come over they once again reach new heights.”
Kirk M. Sommer, global co-head of music at WME, adds: “The Killers were my first signing more than two decades ago – it was love on first listen – and they continue to break records, warm hearts, and delight fans each and every night. It is a great privilege to be a part of their team and I was so proud to share in the joy of these record-breaking shows at The O2.
“After their monumental second Glastonbury headline performance in 2019, multiple sold-out stadium shows across the world in 2022, and their stunning Reading and Leeds headline sets last year, this six-night, sold-out run at London’s The O2 was the perfect capstone to the wildly successful ‘Rebel Diamonds’ tour in UK. It is exhilarating to see 20 years of hits performed live with conviction and surprises by a band at the top of their game. The audiences were electric. Congratulations to the band and whole team.”
Emma Bownes, vice president of venue programming for AEG Europe, comments: “Everything about the show was truly world-class – from the changing setlist, to the mammoth production, and of course the moment of absolute euphoria when the band transitioned from the England Euro’s win into one of the most iconic songs of all time – Mr Brightside. It’s truly been a residency to remember, and we hope to welcome The Killers back to The O2 in the future.”
The O2 reported its busiest-ever year for residencies in 2023, with runs from Peter Kay (12 shows), Elton John (10), Micky Flanagan (9), Madonna (6) and Chris Brown (6).
“Residencies are something that are becoming more and more important in the way we programme the venue,” Bownes told IQ. Read the full interview here.
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House rules: The O2’s roaring residency trade
The O2 has hailed the ‘return of the residency’ as it reports its busiest-ever year for runs of four nights or more.
By the end of 2023, London’s flagship venue will have hosted five concert and comedy residencies including Peter Kay (12), Elton John (10), Micky Flanagan (9), Madonna (6) and Chris Brown (6), compared to just two residencies in 2022.
“Residencies are something that are becoming more and more important in the way we programme the venue,” says Emma Bownes, vice president of venue programming at The O2.
“There is a huge demand for live music at the moment at arena, stadium and outdoor level, so artists are realising they can serve the amount of fan demand by sitting down at The O2. We’re lucky that we’re in London and there’s a huge catchment area of really active music fans. I can see that an artist will opt to play potentially 10 shows at The O2 rather than looking at a stadium or a festival headline slot.”
Robbie Balfour, director of marketing and brand at the AEG venue, also points out that “with the economic situation that touring finds itself in, there are some efficiencies with being in one venue for a longer period”.
Madonna is one such artist who has opted for the advantages of an arena residency over stadium shows or headline sets at festivals (though she’s rumoured to play Glastonbury 2024).
“Residencies are something that is becoming more and more important in the way we programme the venue”
Tonight, the Queen of Pop returns to the 21,000-capacity venue to perform the penultimate London show on her Madonna: The Celebration Tour, having delivered four in October (14, 15, 17, 18).
Across the six concerts, the 65-year-old has shifted 85,000 tickets, with prices ranging between £47.55–432.25 for general admission and up to £1,307.75 for VIP.
With ticket prices rising, giving fans more value for their money is something Balfour is wary of when enhancing the fan experience around residencies and concerts.
“People expect a lot more and need to see the value of their investment in a ticket,” says Balfour. “We want to repay them and make sure that from the moment they arrive, it feels like a big day out and not just the two or three hours that the show is taking place.
“As a venue, you could think you’ll invest in the fans until they’ve bought their tickets and then that’s where you stop. We have a policy to invest in the fans after they become a ticket holder.”
The extended period of time a residency offers enables The O2 to go the extra mile for both fans and artists – an opportunity they’ve consistently seized upon.
“I can see that an artist will opt to play potentially 10 shows at the O2 rather than looking at a stadium or a festival headline slot”
For the Queen of Pop, The O2 commissioned the Royal Family’s flagmakers to create a bespoke Madonna-themed flag that flies from the venue’s roof to signify that she’s in residence.
For Drake’s 2019 residency, The O2’s sign was altered to an ‘O3’ in honour of the rapper’s single God’s Plan, in which he raps: “And you know me/Turn The O2 into The O3.”
The O2 also paid homage to BLACKPINK during their two headline shows in 2022 by lighting the tent pink, and to comedian Mo Gilligan during his 2021 homecoming show at the ‘MO2′.
“It’s about working with [artists’ team] to make sure it’s an authentic activation and ultimately if you do it right it’s a win for the artist and the venue because it’s an extra spotlight and a win for the fan because it’s a better experience,” says Balfour. “We are obviously so much more than just a rented space… we want to create a sort of festival destination for a fan base for a period of time.”
Bownes adds: “We don’t want artists to ever feel like they’re just another artist coming through the venue. We want to show the artists and the fans that we’re grateful and excited to have them at the venue.”
Musical artists aside, the venue’s longest run in 2023 belongs to comedian Peter Kay. The British stand-up act is the first-ever artist to hold a monthly residency at The O2, performing a show at the venue every month between November 2022 until April 2025.
“We don’t want artists to ever feel like they’re just another artist coming through the venue”
“The demand for Peter Kay was utterly off the scale,” says Bownes. “We were genuinely really lucky to get him to agree to become the first artist to play a monthly residency at the O2… we’ve been trying to find an artist who could do that for years.”
Kay’s 29-show run secures him second place in The O2’s all-time longest residencies (of which there are 92), coming second only to the UK’s National Health Service (NHS) which turned the London venue into a training facility for 44 days.
It has also earned him a place in the 21 Club, a hall of fame launched after Prince’s iconic 21-night run in 2007 to honour the artists who have performed 21 or more shows at The O2.
Prince, Take That, Drake, One Direction, Micky Flanagan, Michael McIntyre, Young Voices and Michael Bublé are among the members, all of whom have been presented with a symbolic ‘key to the venue’.
While 2023 is by far The O2’s busiest-ever year for residencies, 2024 looks to rival that with five already announced. Take That (6), Olivia Rodrigo (4), Liam Gallagher (4), The 1975 (4) and Michael McIntyre (4) will all grace the hallowed stage for multiple-night visits, with more to be announced according to Bownes.
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Venue experts tackle rise in crowd disorder
European venue experts have spoken out on the increase in unruly audiences at live events since the business returned from the pandemic.
The issue, which has been reported on by a number of UK publications, was explored during The Venue’s Venue at this month’s ILMC in London, chaired by The O2’s Emma Bownes and OVO Arena Wembley boss John Drury.
Teeing up the discussion, Bownes spoke from personal experience in saying the problem was not limited to one form of entertainment.
“It’s fair to say that at The O2 we’ve definitely seen, across multiple genres, a change in audience behaviour,” she said. “I go to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival every year, and I noticed a massive trend in quite aggressive heckling. Heckling’s always been a thing in comedy, but it’s not as prevalent as it definitely is now.
“I’ve heard racist heckling. I’ve heard heckling to the detriment of the entire show, where two drunken members of the audience just wouldn’t let an issue go with a comedian and it’s ruined the show for everybody. We’ve had really poor and aggressive audience behaviour at country shows, pop shows, comedy shows. As I mentioned, it’s not specific to one genre.”
“I feel like there’s an increased expectation when you get to the gig. With some individuals, if it’s not perfect, then they’re willing to kick off”
Katie Musham of Oak View Group’s Co-op Live in Manchester, and Sybil Franke of Germany’s Velomax Berlin, noted that the trend had not been mirrored at venues outside the UK.
“I spoke to my counterparts [in the US] and they’ve not experienced anything to the detriment that we’re seeing in the UK,” said Musham.
“I haven’t heard of any incidents across [Germany],” added Franke. “We do have such incidences, but at New Year’s Eve public gatherings or after football games, not in venues from what I have experienced.”
Bownes questioned whether the rise in disorder was related to people having less disposable income than in the past.
“I feel like there’s an increased expectation when you get to the gig,” she said. “With some individuals, if it’s not perfect, then they’re willing to kick off with the audience member who might be stood up in front of them.”
“Just before Covid, through Covid and post Covid, there was definitely a change in the audience”
“I think we are seeing that certainly,” agreed Drury. “Actually, there’s a conversation as well about the level of abuse that we should take. I had a customer who was unhappy about something. She was screaming down the phone at me, and it was so loud that the speaker was distorting on the phone. None of us should have to put up with that.”
Crowded space expert Prof Chris Kemp of Mind Over Matter consultancy put forward some of the sociological factors – explaining that the changing crowd dynamics pre-dated the pandemic.
“This is a window into our society, and what’s happening in society is being mirrored by what’s happening,” he said. “Just before Covid, through Covid and post Covid, there was definitely a change in the audience. I was working on a lot projects, and I was finding that things weren’t the same.
“There’s a polarity in music at the moment between the protest songs emerging from a number of genres and sub genres, and also, simultaneously, this new kind of relationship between concertgoers and artists where the crowd is more fragile.”
Kemp said there had been a rise in “young male on female assaults”, plus instances where security has been deliberately distracted to enable fans to “jump from the seating onto the floor, which causes severe problems”.
“This is about an audience recovering from the immense impact and emotional challenges caused by a pandemic as well”
“This is about an audience recovering from the immense impact and emotional challenges caused by a pandemic as well,” he added. “We’ve also seen concomitant rise in challenges in both society, and more from a kind of micro viewpoint [with] the recognition of autism, Tourette’s, ADHD and other, often hidden, conditions… coming to the fore. That’s been quite an interesting development, alongside difficulties with mental health. Also, it shows that the event is not a one-size-fits-all scenario; it needs a graduated response to take into consideration the many things that are changing in the industry.”
Responding to a question from the audience, Kemp agreed with the assertion that fans who had bought tickets pre-Covid were attending the rescheduled shows “in a completely different mindset” and were harder to impress and less patient as a result, with that potentially contributing to unruly behaviour.
“I think you’ve got a possible link there,” he said. “I’m not sure if it’s a great many people, but it may be one or two, and it only takes one or two people do incite violence.”
In conclusion, Drury said the debate had shown the subject to be more nuanced than it might initially have appeared.
“I think you make a really good point about mental welfare, and people going back into society who might already have some issues that are exacerbated by the reopening of society,” he told Kemp.
“It’s interesting that when when we look at the headlines of ‘have audiences forgotten how to behave’, and ‘has Covid sent them crazy? They’re coming back out to see events and they just don’t know how to behave,’ it’s actually a lot more complicated than that.”
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“Just incredible”: Inside the O2’s emotional first shows back
The team behind Gorillaz’ two shows at London’s O2 Arena earlier this week have spoken of their joy in being involved in the UK’s first full-capacity arena concerts in 17 long months.
The Damon Albarn-led virtual band made their return to the O2, the world’s busiest music venue, on 10–11 August, playing a free show for National Health Service (NHS) workers on Tuesday and then a sold-out ticketed event for the general public the following night. Stuart Galbraith, CEO of the shows’ promoter, Kilimanjaro Live – who says he last saw a concert in May 2020 – tells IQ of his excitement at seeing “17,000 people all in one place, having world-class entertainment and just having fun. And [the first night] in particular, it’s brilliant that we could say ‘thank you’ in this way and give these heroes a night of free entertainment.”
Featuring special guests including Shaun Ryder, Little Simz, Leee John, Robert Smith and New Order’s Peter Hook, the shows marked both the return of full-capacity arena entertainment to the UK and Gorillaz to the stage, the O2 dates being the band’s first live performances since October 2018.
“The atmosphere was… I really can’t describe it. It was just incredible,” says Emma Bownes, vice-president of venue programming for the O2’s operator, AEG Europe, for whom the Gorillaz’ shows marked the first arena concerts at the venue since Halsey played on 8 March 2020.
“We’d been talking internally about how great it would be if we could have a really special first show back,” she continues, recalling the genesis of the free gig for healthcare staff, “and then Stuart from Kili got in touch, as he’d been talking to Ian [Huffam at X-ray Touring, Gorillaz’ agent] and also the band about this NHS show, so that was really fortuitous. He said, ‘We want to do this’, and we told him on the venue side we were also trying to think about how amazing it would be to have a special first show back, so it worked really well.”
“It’s brilliant we could say ‘thank you’ and give these heroes a night of free entertainment”
Bownes explains that the venue used a now-familiar system of Covid-status certification to keep concertgoers safe, with entry restricted to those who could prove they are fully vaccinated against Covid-19, have natural antibodies against the disease, or had returned a negative lateral-flow test in the previous 36 hours. Due to a combination of effective communications ahead of the event, she says, and growing awareness among fans of the need to keep shows provable free of coronavirus as they return, a huge 95% of the 17,000 people who attended the second Gorillaz show had their NHS (National Health Service) Covid Pass ready at the gates – despite it being, in many cases, the first live event they had attended in nearly two years.
“What we spent a lot of time doing in the run-up to the show was trying to make sure that everybody knew what to expect before they arrived,” Bownes says. “For the ticketed show, only 5% of people weren’t quite set up, so the comms worked. Even among those 5%, she adds, “none of them required a test – some, for example, had already taken the it but they hadn’t uploaded the result to the NHS yet – and none of them were turned away.”
Helping with the speedy ingress was the fact that people turned up earlier than for a ‘normal’ gig, continues Bownes. “Because we did all these comms in advance, it wasn’t like it normally is, where you get a massive rush 45 minutes before the band goes on,” she says. “People turned up in good time and had factored into their journeys that we needed plenty of time to check their Covid Passes.”
Covid-status certification like that used at the Gorillaz shows is a “good thing to educate the audience on”, particularly as it could become mandatory for live events in the UK later this year, Galbraith says. “I think it’s a good thing to do it now and get people used to it,” he comments. “In the way that you’re going to use exactly the same system for travel, I think it will become the norm for many things in society for the next few months, and possibly a couple of years. And I don’t think it’s that big of an imposition to be able to just prove to your fellow customers that you’re safe – and that therefore enables us to say to the customers, ‘Come to the show with certainty that everyone around you is virus-free. That also adds to that overall customer confidence, which in itself will add to our ticket sales.”
“I think the vast majority of people are quite happy to do it and show that responsibility to their fellow members of the public,” he continues. “And we’re running similar protocols backstage as well: The ability to get a pass to work in the backstage area is contingent on providing your Covid certification in exactly the way that getting a ticket is in the front of house.”
“I will never take it for granted, being at a gig, again. Everybody says it, but I genuinely mean it”
With a busy diary of upcoming shows – Galbraith notes that ticket sales are picking up across the board, particularly among rock acts and those popular with younger audiences, with acts as diverse as Sabaton, Andrea Bocelli and film composer Hans Zimmer selling particularly well – the Kilimanjaro Live chief says he’s looking forward to getting back to doing what he loves after nearly 18 months of “politicking and lobbying” with LIVE (Live music Industry Venues and Entertainment) to help the UK business survive the coronavirus crisis. And while he’s under no illusion that the industry body will have plenty to deal with over the next few years, particularly the challenges posed by Brexit and the environmental impact of touring, “it’s going to be brilliant to get back to what we should have been doing”, he says.
“It’s been such a weird time because we’ve just been rescheduling constantly. We’ve rescheduled over 200 gigs, and we’ve had to cancel 55, and whereas normally we’d be doing all this work and have all these gigs – actually have something to show for it – the past 18 months have just been reschedule, reschedule, reschedule countless times,” adds Bownes. “So to have the show actually happen was amazing.”
“The bit that did it for me,” she continues, “was walking around the back of the stage to go and see Stuart and Ian. The O2 probably does 200 gigs a year so it was something that you used to do so often, but it was like you’d forgotten that you used to do it – just walking behind the stage on the way to see the promoter and the agent, and hearing the crowd… It was amazing. It was just great.
“I will never take it for granted, being at a gig, again. Everybody says it, but I genuinely mean it. You know what the industry is like: People don’t always go to gigs, or they’ll maybe see a few songs and go home, but I do feel like that will change.”
Another free show for NHS workers headlined by Oasis frontman Liam Gallagher will take place at the O2 next Tuesday (17 August).
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Little Mix awarded for 12 headline shows at the O2
Little Mix returned to the 20,000-capacity O2 Arena this week, playing two consecutive nights to bring their total tally of headline shows at the London arena to 12.
Throughout their career, Little Mix have performed at the venue on four separate tours, selling a total of 184,000 tickets. The girl group have played five shows at the O2 this year alone, as part of their LM5 tour.
Emma Bownes, vice president of venue programming at the O2 comments: “It’s been an honour hosting Little Mix for what has now been 12 incredible shows at the O2. Just as expected the four tours have generated a lot of excitement across the ages selling in excess of 184,000 tickets. We’d like to thank Little Mix and SJM for letting us be part of their journey.”
LM5, the sixth concert tour by the British girl group, has visited arenas in Spain, Italy, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Ireland and the UK.
Pictured (L – R): Danielle Kennedy-Clark (deputy general manager, the O2), Jesy Nelson, Leigh-Anne Pinnock, Jade Thirlwall, Perrie Edwards and Emma Bownes.
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The New Bosses 2019: Marc Saunders, The O2
The New Bosses 2019 – the biggest-ever edition of IQ‘s yearly roundup of future live industry leaders, as voted for by their peers – was published in IQ 85 last month revealing the twelve promising agents, promoters, bookers and execs that make up this year’s list.
To get to know this year’s cream of the crop a little better, IQ conducted interviews with each one of 2019’s New Bosses, to discover their greatest inspirations and proudest achievements, pinpoint the reasons for their success and obtain advice for those hoping to be a future New Boss. Snippets of the interviews can be found in the latest IQ Magazine, with all interviews being reproduced in full online and on IQ Index over the coming weeks.
The sixth New Boss is Marc Saunders (27), programming manager of The O2 in London. Saunders studied music journalism at the University for the Creative Arts (UCA) in Surrey in the UK (but took a different route into the industry to award-winning IQ news editor Jon Chapple, who did the same course).
After interning at Vector Management (James, Il Divo), Saunders spent two and a half years at publisher Hornall Brothers Music, before joining The O2 in London in 2015. (Read the previous interview with HomeComing Events’ Katlego Malatji here.)
What are you busy with right now?
Finalising 2019’s calendar and looking ahead to 2020 – and 2021 – ensuring that the diary is being filled up with the biggest artists and top events. One perk of always looking so far ahead is that time seems to fly by!
Did you always want to work in the music business?
Being the dreamer that I am, I originally wanted to work in the industry but as a musician, I can play a few instruments and I used to be a session guitarist for various artists. I then had a realisation that it might be a wiser step to head into the business side of the music industry.
What are some of the highlights of your career so far?
I’d say booking my first event which was Blue Planet II: Live In Concert in March 2019. It was amazing to see everything finally come together after months of planning and watch the incredible shows play out. It was also the first plastic-free event at The O2 which I was really proud to be a part of.
On the other hand, I had the privilege of presenting Post Malone an award to celebrate his first headline shows at the arena. I’m a huge fan, and I hope next time I have a chance to challenge him at beer pong.
“Building and maintaining relationships is so fundamental to what we do”
How has your role changed since you started out?
I first joined the team as programming administrator in 2015, where my primary focus was the coordination of our very busy calendar, and also issuing show contracts. My evolution within the team has culminated in me now focusing on the physical booking of shows, by means of working closely with agents and promoters to ensure we attract the best talent and book the most sought-after events.
What’s the biggest lesson you’ve learnt while at The O2?
Building and maintaining relationships is so fundamental to what we do. One of the main keys to the venue’s success is based on our efforts to ensure that our clients and their artists are the top priority. If you go the extra length to make your clients happy, then the shows will always be more successful.
What, if anything, would you change about how the live industry is run today?
I would like there to be more focus on grassroots venues in the UK. The amazing fundraising work of the Music Venue Trust this year has shown that there is still a strong belief in ensuring the survival of these venues, and I firmly believe that without them, artists will not have an initial platform to one day reach the level of performing in arenas.
“I feel very fortunate to work at the world’s most popular music, entertainment and leisure venue and I don’t want this adventure to end”
What do you do for fun?
I have a love/hate relationship with running. I regularly go for jogs to keep active, and also finished the London Marathon this year for the Make-A-Wish foundation. But if I’d call running ‘fun’ then I’d be the world’s biggest liar!
Do you have an industry mentor?
Since being introduced into the programming team, Emma Bownes and Christian D’Acuna have been so influential in helping to shape my career. They’ve taken me under their wing and helped to teach me the ins and outs of how to book shows at an arena level, and I have the utmost gratitude towards them for that.
What advice would you give to anyone who wants to get into, or is new to, the business?
A music-related degree is always a bonus, but realistically if you have the passion and drive to go the extra mile, then you’ll succeed in this industry. Make friends with everyone, broaden your horizons, and good things will come your way.
Where do you see yourself in ten years’ time?
I usually don’t know where I see myself in ten days time, let alone ten years! But as it stands I feel very fortunate to work at the world’s most popular music, entertainment and leisure venue and I don’t want this adventure to end.
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The Crystal Ball: Predictions for 2019
IQ: Panellists, what do you anticipate being next year’s greatest challenges, both for you and for the wider industry?
Emma Bownes, vice-president of programming, AEG Europe: I think most of the industry is concerned about the impact of Brexit on the music industry – will it lead to restrictions on travel for British acts?
The government have to make sure that musicians, particularly smaller ones, can continue to tour the EU easily without the need for visas – and similarly for European artists – while they develop as artists and build their fan-bases and careers.
Beverley Whitrick, strategic director, Music Venue Trust: So much attention is being focused on Brexit that it makes it even more difficult to advance with the changes needed to protect the grassroots of the music industry. Not surprisingly, enormous and necessary energy is being spent trying to safeguard international touring and ensuring that the UK continues to be a leader in music.
Trying to reconcile what is needed at home with these global concerns poses the greatest challenge for 2019.
Stephan Thanscheidt, managing director, FKP Scorpio: A challenge faced by both the touring and festival sectors is the rising costs in all areas, such as personnel, production, administrative expenses and, especially, artist fees. Of course, ticket prices cannot – and should not – be scaled limitlessly, so we need to find ways to optimise and allocate these expenses.
Okan Tombulca, managing director, eps: I think our biggest challenge will be the same as for the rest of the industry: labour. Europe-wide, there is a huge problem with the availability of staff – security, stagehands, event co-ordinators – as well as equipment.
“Europe-wide, there is a huge problem with the availability of staff”
Kim Bloem, vice-head promoter, Mojo Concerts: The biggest issue over the last two years is the lack of personnel and materials for the number of events taking place from May to September. The number of shows, festivals and special events is rapidly increasing in this period, and therefore building crew, technicians, riggers, security personnel, etc., get exhausted because they’re working crazy hours.
We need to make sure live music remains a safe working place for everybody, but getting the number of people needed is very challenging.
Okan Tombulca: I think 2019 will be the biggest year in 20 years in terms of the number of events going on.
Jules de Lattre, senior agent, United Talent Agency: The issue of ticket pricing, both on the primary and secondary markets. Although significant progress was made in 2018, how to combat illicit secondary-ticketing practices will continue to be an issue we deal with on a daily basis.
As the secondary market becomes more regulated but not fully eradicated, will a more widely used and accepted model of dynamic pricing on the primary market emerge?
IQ: How about the biggest opportunities?
Jules de Lattre: As music consumption on ISPs explodes, there will be increasing opportunities for fans to fully connect with artists in the live space.
Mark Yovich, president, Ticketmaster International: There are more opportunities than ever before to empower artists to connect with their fans and harness their live experience. Whether that’s through digital tickets or facial recognition, we are continuing to innovate in a wide range of products that are changing the landscape of the live business.
“Hopefully, 2019 will see further action to ensure that live music is accessible to the widest possible audience”
Emma Bownes: This year saw a great deal of progress made in terms of restricting the ability of professional ticket resellers to acquire and resell large amounts of tickets with a huge mark-up. The British government introduced new legislation to ban resellers from using bots to purchase tickets in bulk, secondary ticketing sites Get Me In! and Seatwave are closing down, and the O2 and the SSE Arena, Wembley, both introduced a digital ticketing system featuring a dynamically changing barcode system that ensures tickets cannot be copied or shared on secondary sites.
Hopefully, 2019 will see further action to ensure that live music is accessible to the widest possible audience.
IQ: Can you identify any key market trends you expect to see emerging next year?
Stephan Thanscheidt: Concentration of power. Next to the continuously evolving activities of FKP Scorpio in Germany and abroad, as well as the strategic partnership with AEG, the live sector of [FKP majority owner] CTS Eventim is growing further due to purchases in Italy and Spain. The same can, of course, be observed at Live Nation and other international companies.
Beverley Whitrick: More grassroots music venues will close unless people who claim to be supportive actually start demonstrating that support through their actions.
Stephan Thanscheidt: Another observation is the formation of investors and investment groups who don’t have a background as a promoter buying up festivals all over Europe.
“Apart from music and comedy, we see the market for speaking events growing”
Mark Yovich: One word: mobile. We’ve been saying it for years, but 2018 saw a huge spike in the percentage of mobile traffic and, more importantly, mobile ticket sales. We think mobile-first with everything we do, from how fans discover events through to digital methods of entry.
Beverley Whitrick: Local activism and campaigns to support music will grow. Both artists and audiences are getting more vocal about the value of live music to communities, local economies, and health and wellbeing.
Emma Bownes: Alongside the music programming you’d expect to see at both venues, we’re seeing a lot of shows coming through the O2 and The SSE Arena, Wembley, that are aimed at more of a family audience: Hugh Jackman, Cirque du Soleil, NBA, Harlem Globetrotters, Strictly Come Dancing, WWE…
We’re also hosting Superstars of Gymnastics at the O2 – a major new showcase of the sport, featuring Simone Biles and Max Whitlock.
Kim Bloem: My colleague Gideon Karting promoted a show with K-pop band BTS this year, which was huge, so that is definitely something that we expect to see emerging in the market in the next few years.
Also, apart from music and comedy – the latter of which is a genre that sees massive audience interest – we see the market for speaking events growing. This year, Barack Obama did a couple of events, and I hope we can have his wife Michelle come to the Netherlands at some point. We can hopefully embrace this kind of role model and learn from them how we can all contribute to a better world.
“I’d like to see much better communication between all sectors of our industry”
IQ: What are you most looking forward to in 2019?
Mark Yovich: The Sunday night at Reading Festival for Foo Fighters. Their London Stadium gig was amazing and I can’t wait to see them again.
Emma Bownes: Sheffield Wednesday turning things around and making it to the play-offs.
Jules de Lattre: We have a very exciting summer of major international festivals planned for Christine and the Queens in 2019. Considering how strong and unique her live show is, I expect the summer will have a significant impact on this campaign. I’m excited for festivalgoers to see and experience this incredible show.
Mark Yovich: Muse and Fleetwood Mac are some other great stadium shows I’m looking forward to, as well as Billie Eilish at Shepherd’s Bush Empire in early 2019.
Beverley Whitrick: Continuing to meet amazing people whose passion for music makes the work we do worthwhile.
IQ: Finally, what, if anything, could the industry do better together in 2019?
Okan Tombulca: In Germany, we have a twice-yearly meeting of all festival promoters and service companies, to share information about health and safety and develop one set of rules for the whole country. I’d like to see much better communication between all sectors of our industry, to share knowledge, help each other and work better together.
“Anyone in the business should do whatever they can to provide support to those in need”
Kim Bloem: Be a bit nicer to each other, work more closely together, and try to reduce the amount of paperwork and covering our own asses all the time. If we work hard and well, we should be able to trust each other’s judgment.
Jules de Lattre: Conversations about mental health are becoming more commonplace and I hope will continue to do so. Anyone in the business should look around them and do whatever they can to provide reliable health and wellness support to those in need.
Gender diversity and equality in the music industry as a whole – from the presence of female-fronted acts at festivals to gender pay gaps and fairer access to leadership roles in the music industry – will also remain a major talking point in the year to come.
Mark Yovich: Accessibility is a huge issue in our industry and we’re working closely with Attitude is Everything on their Ticketing Without Barriers campaign to make sure more is being done.
There seems to be some great momentum, and now is the time for us all to come together to find solutions to ensure equal access to live entertainment.
Stephan Thanscheidt: We need to stand united against political and societal injustice.
Music is being used by groups who are against democratic values and human rights – so why shouldn’t we do the same for freedom and peace?
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John Langford promoted to AEG Europe COO
AEG Europe has made three internal promotions, including the appointment of the O2 general manager John Langford as chief operating officer.
Paul Reeve, currently finance director of the O2 and SSE Arena, Wembley, becomes chief financial officer, while Emma Bownes, the O2’s programming director, is elevated to the newly created position of vice-president of programming across AEG’s European venues.
The appointments follow the recently announced promotion of Alex Hill to president of AEG Europe, following the retirement of long-serving president and CEO Tom Miserendino.
Langford, who joined AEG from Scotland’s SECC in November 2016, comments: “We’ve got amazing venues and superb people across the AEG global family, and I’m really proud that I can continue to play a key part in delivering on our vision to give the world a reason to cheer.”
“I’m looking forward to working closely with John, Paul and Emma in continuing our vision of excellence across our portfolio of European venues”
Bownes has worked for AEG for eight years, developing and curating content for London’s two largest arenas. She programmed the O2’s recent tenth-birthday shows, which included performances from Ed Sheeran, Foo Fighters, alt-J, Jamiroquai and more.
“It’s an honour to be recognised in this way by AEG, and I’m looking forward to focusing on programming across all of our venues in Europe,” she says. “With the way European touring is developing this is a brilliant opportunity for us to be joining forces and making planning simpler for our promoters.”
In addition to the O2 and Wembley Arena, AEG’s European venue portfolio includes Hamburg’s Barclaycard Arena, Berlin’s Mercedes-Benz Arena and the newly opened Verti Music Hall, Stockholm Live and AccorHotels Arena in Paris.
Commenting on the appointments, Alex Hill adds: “I’m looking forward to working closely with John, Paul and Emma in continuing our vision of excellence across our portfolio of European venues and other live entertainment and sports properties”.
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