ILMC 36: The Open Forum: The All Stars
The International Live Music Conference’s (ILMC) annual state-of-the-nation opening session lived up to its billing, as senior industry leaders tackled hot topics including the venue boom, ticket prices and breaking talent.
Chaired by CAA’s Maria May, today’s Open Forum: The All-Stars featured panellists Chris Bray of ASM Global, Niamh Byrne of Eleven Management, DEAG boss Peter Schwenkow and Live Nation Spain chair Pino Sagliocco at London’s Royal Lancaster Hotel.
May began by citing Pollstar figures that showed the worldwide top 100 tours generated $9.17 billion in 2023 – up 46% on the previous year. Gross from the top 100 stadiums and arenas also increased 35% and 29% respectively.
“At the top end of the business, it’s clearly in rude health,” said May. “But there’s a flip side here, with grassroots festivals and venues reporting closures and challenges.”
Schwenkow, who is celebrating 50 years in the business, said: “I think this is my fourth real recession. And I love recessions because people don’t buy new houses, apartments, cars, washing machines; they’re spending their money on live entertainment. We had a terrific ’22, we had a very very good ’23 and ’24 looks great as well.”
“As long as we have a market outside the market – where certain organisations can ask for twice the ticket price – then tickets are not expensive enough”
The Germany-based DEAG founder and CEO said he agreed with Live Nation chief Michael Rapino’s assertion that ticket prices “are still not high enough”, referencing the secondary ticketing market.
“As long as we have a market outside the market – where certain organisations can ask for twice the price that is on the ticket – then tickets are not expensive enough,” he argued.
Bray discussed the recent renovation work at ASM’s AO Arena in Manchester and the impending opening of Oak View Group’s Co-op Live venue in the city.
“I think competition is driving standards high,” he said. “There’s a fight to get the best talent in the venues, and that’s not just here in the UK, it’s across the world as well. We’ve got 400 venues across the world so we’ve always got to be at the top of our game.”
The ASM Global Europe promotion also touched upon the venue management firm’s proposed acquisition by premium experiences company Legends.
“There’s also a lot of venues that will be opening up within the next 12 to 18 months, which will only open up lots of markets for us”
“It’s not a done deal yet, we’re still waiting on a few things to come through,” he said. “That probably will be the back end of the year, but that brings with great opportunities for this space and more investment – and more investment is only good for the fans that are coming through and the artists that are playing in the spaces.
“It’s an exciting time for the venue market,” he continued. “We’ve got lots of activity going on, particularly the Legends acquisition which is an exciting opportunity for us over the next few months. There’s also a lot of venues that will be opening up within the next 12 to 18 months, which will only open up lots of markets for us.”
Sagliocco, meanwhile, recalled attending U2’s residency at the groundbreaking Las Vegas Sphere.
“It’s one of the most incredible venues I’ve ever seen in my lifetime,” he said. “We always have to look to bring something more because I think the public demand is also there. They don’t want to be seeing the same thing over and over again. They’re looking for a new experience and I think that the Sphere is a tremendous [vehicle] to do that.
“Now, to make it work, they really have to work hard to find the right concept to make sure people want to go to see it.”
“One thing that we are all good at is being innovators,” added May. “The more innovation there is, the more success that we’re seeing across the world.”
Byrne, however, agreed with May’s suggestion that although the top end of touring was thriving, there were issues for mid and lower range acts, amid reports of some artists at the 1,000-3,000-cap level opting not to go on the road due to it not being financially viable.
“From a mid-level point of view, it’s really, really tough and I feel like we have a big conundrum”
“From an artist point of view, we are so appreciative of innovation and the opportunity to play in different venues and different types of spaces, and long may that continue,” said Byrne. “But from a mid-level point of view, it’s really, really tough and I feel like we have a big conundrum.
“There is no live business without artists and audiences, and we shouldn’t be hammering fans to make that make sense. There needs to be something done in order to be able to invest and drive culture because, ultimately, that’s what it’s all about.”
On the subject of discuss artist development, Sagliocco bemoaned the lack of support for up-and-coming talent.
“I think the problem is that we don’t do enough to build a bridge to help younger talents who are asked to try and make a living every day,” he said. “That’s why I’m so proud to help develop burgeoning Spanish musicians while convincing local politicians that we need a sponsorship break. We have the funds to support these artists through the banks, and I feel that is really important.”
The panel then segued into discussing the rapid rise of the Middle Eastern market – particularly Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states’ heavy investment in hosting and providing live entertainment. While concerns were raised about some artists’ views on performing in the MENA region, Bray considered the opportunity a “major development”.
“ASM is about to have one of the biggest entertainment centres in the world in Hong Kong,” he said, advising the audience and his fellow panelists to not disregard Europe.
“We opened a new office in Milan last year, and we’re going to open new venues in Lisbon and Finland as well,” he continued. “It isn’t just the Gulf states where a noticeable growth in the market has occurred.”
“With the number of new markets opening up in recent years, it seems like the live music and entertainment industry is heading towards a truly global era”
May, who mentioned the new arena being built in Lagos, Nigeria as well as the success of last year’s inaugural edition of Lollapalooza in India, said she was “barraged with constant approaches for new markets”.
“With the number of new markets opening up in recent years, it seems like the live music and entertainment industry is heading towards a truly global era,” she said
The panel also voiced their thoughts on the willingness of audiences to pay more for premium tickets.
“I think people will pay to have a little bit of luxury,” said Bray. “They don’t want to have to queue, they want to be able to get in seamlessly. It’s a real trend in the venue space, where customers have realised that they get more out of paying extra for those perks. In return, we’ll invest in making luxury spaces nicer and making that premium experience more accessible.”
Schwenkow agreed with Bray, adding: “Before, it used to be the case that the cheaper tickets would sell more than the premium ones, but it’s now the other way around.”
“Sometimes, going through hardships and recessions can be a really good thing”
Wrapping up, May asked her guests about the challenges they anticipated in 2024 and beyond.
“Sometimes, going through hardships and recessions can be a really good thing,” said Byrne. “It’ll force us to become more innovative with our ideas, and I’m looking forward to exploring new ways of doing things, as well as opening up lots of international markets.”
Sagliocco, meanwhile, hailed the explosion of the Latin music market.
“Compared to others, the Spanish market is growing bigger than any other market and this is being reflected around the world with acts like Bad Bunny and Karol G being global stars,” Sagliocco said. “Because Spain is the bridge to the Latin American market and vice versa, I think Spain is in a very good position.”
“I’d love to do more European touring,” concluded Schwenkow. “Can we invent more products? Can we keep the prices stable? Can we be creative? Do we always respect value for money? At the end of the day, we are all in the ‘promise’ business, and our general challenges in this industry haven’t changed much in the 50 years since I began at DEAG.”
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Manchester’s AO Arena capacity upped to 23k
Manchester’s AO Arena has confirmed that its capacity will rise to 23,000 as a result of its £50 million (€59m) reconstruction – reinforcing its place as one of Europe’s biggest indoor venues.
The revamp includes a 100% increase in standing floor capacity to 6,200, supported by a new lower concourse designed to enhance the experience of the previously 21,000-cap venue’s standing floor fans. The project is set for final completion in March.
“As part of AO Arena’s redevelopment we have dramatically expanded the standing floor space which means it will compete with any other venue in the UK,” says Chris Bray, president of venue operator ASM Global Europe. “Its unique bowl configuration means that AO Arena proudly remains the biggest sporting indoor arena, and we are excited to continue to host the world’s biggest and most exciting events here in the heart of Manchester.”
In addition, digitalisation of the concourse spaces will heighten pre-show excitement and offer even more ease for guests finding their way around the arena. The venue, which has remained open throughout its redevelopment, will also boast improved acoustics, sound and sightlines also boast a host of new bars and an elevated food offering.
The artist experience has been upgraded with an all-new backstage artist compound complete with a private kitchen. Industry-leading heating and ventilation systems have been installed, which are more environmentally-friendly and sustainable.
“The AO has been pushing the music scene forward for over 27 years and over one million people walk through these legendary doors every year”
Among some of the first to witness the transformation includes Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham who described the AO Arena as “the beating heart of Manchester”.
Manchester rapper Aitch visited the venue as a special surprise guest, welcoming guests to the evening festivities at the recent Topping Out ceremony.
“When the AO Arena asked me to be part of tonight I thought, how can I say no? It’s always been a huge part of the culture here in Manchester and you know I’m all about anything that gives back to the community,” he said. “The AO has been pushing the music scene forward for over 27 years and over one million people walk through these legendary doors every year, and we have them right on our doorstep.”
The 30-year-old arena also recently announced an extension of its naming rights partnership with electrical retailer AO until 2030. Recent and upcoming gigs at the venue include The 1975, Niall Horan, Ne-Yo, Depeche Mode, D-Block Europe, Rick Astley, Jason Derulo, James Arthur, Girls Aloud, Nickelback and The World of Hans Zimmer.
AO Arena is set to face competition in the city from Oak View Group’s new east Manchester development Co-op Live, which is scheduled to open this April.
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ASM Global hires new Olympia London CEO
ASM Global has appointed respected live industry veteran Andy O’Sullivan as the new CEO of Olympia London.
Previously VP for IMG’s European stadium and arena business, O’Sullivan has worked on global events and venues including the opening of Wembley National Stadium, delivering $1 billion in sales through Club Wembley – a global first.
His most recent role was as venue director of Tottenham Hotspur Stadium from October 2012 until December 2023, where he oversaw the delivery of the venue’s guest experience and was instrumental in the design, development, mobilisation and commercialisation of the stadium.
“We are delighted to have Andy join our team, particularly at this pivotal moment for Olympia London as it takes great strides towards an incredibly exciting future,” says ASM Global Europe president Chris Bray. “Andy comes armed with exceptional experience, knowledge of the industry and proven track record for commercial success. He also shares in our ambition for the future and growth of Olympia London so I have no doubt that he will bring tremendous value and vision to the venue.”
“I’m incredibly excited to be joining such a transformational project at such a critical time, one that’s taking shape right here in London”
As operator of the venue, the ASM team oversese management responsibility for the exhibition and events business at Olympia London. The ongoing £1.3 billion redevelopment of the Olympia complex includes a 4,400-cap live music venue, a 1,575-seat performing arts theatre, a school for the creative arts, restaurants, bars and eateries; two hotels and offices.
“I’m incredibly excited to be joining such a transformational project at such a critical time, one that’s taking shape right here in London,” adds O’Sullivan. “It will be an incredible new landmark destination for the city, that will help to reshape the way we see and interact with conferencing, exhibitions, and the creative arts industry. I’m pleased to be joining the Olympia London and ASM Global family to develop what will be a showcase for the world.
“I have a real passion for creative disciplines, and it’s not often one gets to be involved with art, dance, theatre, and music at the same destination. It will be groundbreaking, something I know I’m really going to enjoy. Not to forget the amazing heritage Expo Halls that the wider estate will be built around – imagine a day or weekend in London where you get to create, learn, work, dine, stay and play – a real chance to celebrate heritage, whilst embracing big change, it will be truly breathtaking.”
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ASM Global: Reimagining the guest experience
At ASM Global we’re transforming the guest experience, reimagining what live experiences look like for everyone who walks through the doors of our venues. As the world’s leading producer of live entertainment experiences, we’re on a mission to future-proof our venues so they can be enjoyed by guests for many years to come.
The goal is simple – everyone visiting an ASM Global venue should leave with great memories that last a lifetime – our role is to make sure those memories are truly unforgettable, exceeding expectations at every moment. The future is bright for ASM Global and we are very excited to continue to show our 180 million+ fans what we’ve been working on.
Over the last three years, we’ve been investing in our teams, venues and infrastructure as a continued commitment to fans, guests and artists. AO Arena in the heart of Manchester’s city centre is undergoing a transformational £100m redevelopment across the whole arena. We are building a brand new concourse on the lower floor level with three new bars, and have completed a major overhaul of the existing concourse space.
Significant upgrades to back of house facilities have also been unveiled, with new dressing rooms, green rooms and crew spaces to ensure that all of our artists and their teams are ready and prepared to perform. And we have created new, award-winning premium spaces. The Beautiful North was recently awarded the ALSD Spotlight Award 2023 for Best Suite Experience, presented at ALSD International, and The Mezz, our new, world leading lounge and restaurant pre-show spaces will surprise and delight on another level when they launch in February.
These dramatic improvements to the customer experience also include brand new entrances and exit points and new technology that ultimately ensure that people are able to get in and out quicker than in any arena in the country. This is incredibly important as we look to ensure that fans can be assured that when buying their tickets, they can do so with confidence in being able to meet their travel commitments in this travel disrupted world we live in currently.
“In the UK, Europe and globally our portfolio is growing at pace, with new contracts in existing and new markets”
In the North-East, we’re bringing The Sage to life as part of a new development. The ICC and arena will inject further opportunity into the region, enriching the area’s live entertainment scene and we are front and centre of the £420m project.
In London, we are proud to operate the iconic Olympia London. A prestigious venue with international recognition and cultural significance, we’re delighted to be helping to shape the £1.3bn redevelopment to ensure the venue stays world leading through innovation, and state of the art operations.
Over in Stockholm, we’re working in partnership with the city to propel the 16,000 capacity Avicii Arena into the future, creating new tiers of seating options for fans as part of a £100m renovation.
In the UK, Europe and globally our portfolio is growing at pace, with new contracts in existing and new markets, expanding ASM’s 350+ venues worldwide. This year, we’ve moved into Finland which is an exciting market for us. We’ve taken on operations at Helsinki’s iconic Kulttuuritalo and are in the middle of major developments at the Hanasaari Power Plant site which is set to transform into a burgeoning cultural district complete with an arena.
“At the core of these upgrades and investments is the ticket buyer – we understand that customers expect more than ever before from their live experiences”
The doors have also re-opened at The Halls in Wolverhampton which has undergone transformative renovations. Here, our catering division CGC has been brought on board for the reopening project and to manage food and beverage strategy and facilities for the venue.
At the core of these upgrades and investments is the ticket buyer – we understand that customers expect more than ever before from their live experiences – more choice, a more personalised offering and an elevated journey from arrival to encore. That’s where new technologies, advancements in security, digitalisation of concourses amongst other innovations make an enormous difference.
Within our improvement of the guest experience is a major focus on food and beverage. We’ve overhauled our menus, offering better quality and value for money, catering for everyone’s tastes and preferences and serving up even more choice. As we continue to evolve in this area, we are developing partnerships with familiar chefs and local brands to bring innovative, tasty treats across our offers from VIP experiences to concourses.
Plus, we’re continually implementing new technologies designed to improve entry into venues and once inside, guests will notice these upgrades for themselves. There’s new digital screen technology with clear signposting across each concourse bar. We will be using new screens to help our guests understand where the shortest queue times, coupled with pre-pay, in-seat and self-serve technology, this will enable our guests to spend more time enjoying the show.
“We have adopted a smart strategy of partnering with some of the leading venue development businesses in the world to improve our venues”
Premium customers have more choice than ever before, at the AO Arena with the introduction of The Beautiful North and the new bar and restaurant experience – The Mezz. Similarly at the first direct Arena in Leeds, we have opened The Mixer super suite, further enhancing the guest experience in the award-winning venue. Plus, first direct Arena in Leeds and OVO Arena Wembley are both is benefiting from a recently announced partnership with Sky, rolling out new VIP lounge experiences and giving more Sky customers VIP access and star treatment closer to home.
None of this would be possible without our teams, made up of highly skilled, hugely experienced, passionate industry experts – they are the best in the world at what they do. And we are continually adding to this world class expertise. We have adopted a smart strategy of partnering with some of the leading venue development businesses in the world to improve our venues from a sustainability perspective and from an experiential perspective.
In the past two years alone, we’ve invested in strategic partnerships with Forward Associates, Honeycomb Strategies, and Anthony James Partners, all of whom are the best in their field and make our venues, our clients and the whole customer journey better.
It is an exciting time for ASM Global as we continue to re-imagine the guest experience and ensure that we maintain our position as the leading venue management company in the world.
ASM Global ups Alex Merchán to CMO
ASM Global has promoted LA-based industry veteran Alex Merchán to the position of chief marketing officer.
Merchán, who will oversee the venue giant’s global portfolio, was most recently EVP of marketing, and will spearhead the company’s branding and positioning across key areas including global partnerships, digital and CRM strategy, business development, and advisory and investing efforts.
“In less than one year with our company, Alex has been responsible for reimagining our marketing support infrastructure while simultaneously dramatically enhancing our network’s external initiatives for our clients and partners,” says ASM president and CEO Ron Bension.
Since joining ASM, Merchán has also overseen all strategic marketing, PR, creative services and digital efforts. He has been instrumental in the execution and implementation of the company’s strategic partnership with experience management leader Qualtrics to create an in-depth data and analytics platform for live events, offering “unprecedented” industry insights into fan sentiments, needs and habits.
“This is the thrill of a lifetime. The biggest sandbox in the world and the opportunity to engage with fans across entertainment, sports and business”
He has also actively been involved with ASM Global’s CSR’s Global Acts commitment to sustainability, community and DEI efforts.
“This is the thrill of a lifetime,” adds Merchán. “The biggest sandbox in the world and the opportunity to engage with fans across entertainment, sports and business. That’s what our marketing team gets to work in — with the most prestigious collection of venues on Earth. That means we know the rules of the game better than anyone else, and we play it better than anyone else.”
Prior to his time at ASM Global, Merchán oversaw marketing for Live Nation’s Clubs & Theatres division following a decade-long stint at Hard Rock International.
“Steve’s expertise in food and beverage, on a global-brand-scale makes him an incredibly exciting addition to the team”
In addition, ASM has bolstered its UK senior leadership team with the appointment of Stephen Cooper as VP of food & beverage. Cooper will work alongside the venue teams in the UK to develop new food and beverage solutions for all retail and premium areas.
“It is fantastic to have Steve join the ASM Global team, which continues to see exciting and fast-paced growth,” says Chris Bray, EVP of ASM Global Europe. “Steve’s expertise in food and beverage, on a global-brand-scale makes him an incredibly exciting addition to the team. Food and beverage at all of our venues is a fundamental and evolving part of the customer journey, and as it continues to adapt, grow and move with industry trends and customer behaviours. I am confident that Steve and his team will drive this critical aspect of our business forwards .”
Cooper adds: “I am thrilled to be joining ASM at this exciting time of growth and investment. The opportunity to work alongside the wonderful venue teams to help deliver inspirational, innovative, and memorable events across a diverse and expanding portfolio is a privilege. The passion for excellence in the ASM team is a culture that I have long admired, and I am excited to now be a part of it.”
ASM Global appoints new Olympia London CEO
ASM Global has named Julie Driscoll as the new CEO of Olympia London.
Driscoll brings 25 years of B2C and B2B experience, is currently the divisional MD for retail, manufacturing and engineering at exhibition and conference organiser Hyve Group.
Driscoll, who starts at ASM next month, is also chair of the Association of Exhibition Organisers (AEO) and board member of the Events Industry Alliance.
“I am thrilled to be joining Olympia London under the management of ASM Global,” says Driscoll, who plans to step down from her AEO role. “For 136 years Olympia London has been the home of inspirational events. In partnership with the venue’s owners, Yoo Capital and Deutsche Finance International, I very much look forward to working with the wonderful Olympia London team, to position the venue as a world class destination for the next 100 years.”
The £1.3 billion redevelopment of Olympia, which will be completed in 2024, includes a 4,400-cap live music venue, a 1,575-seat performing arts theatre, a school for the creative arts, restaurants, bars and eateries; two hotels and offices, with ASM taking on management responsibility for the venue’s exhibitions and events business.
“Julie has an ambitious vision for Olympia London, an eye for operational excellence”
“We are delighted to welcome Julie to the ASM Global team,” says Chris Bray, EVP of ASM Global Europe. “Julie has an ambitious vision for Olympia London, an eye for operational excellence, and joins us with exceptional experience as a highly skilled entrepreneurial leader, working successfully with renowned brands and some of the UK’s biggest trade events. We are confident that Julie will bring enormous value, drive growth and lead Olympia London towards a tremendously exciting future.”
Olympia London’s MD Nigel Nathan will remain in a consultancy role for three months to ensure a smooth leadership transition.
“I am so proud to have worked with such an amazing and passionate team at Olympia London for the last 23 years,” adds Nathan. “We’ve achieved so much together. Finding the right person to lead our glorious venue into its exciting future was vital. Julie brings impressive experience from across the events industry, and a strong vision for how to build upon Olympia London’s heritage of hosting events that have helped drive the economy and delighted millions of visitors for the last 136 years.”
Olympia’s music venue, located above the existing west exhibition hall, will be operated by live entertainment giant AEG Presents, which signed a ‘long-term agreement’ with Yoo Capital and Deutsche Finance International, who acquired Olympia in 2017 for €330m.
Manchester’s AO Arena to undergo £50m revamp
ASM Global has announced a £50 million plan to transform Manchester’s AO Arena.
The three-year phased development, which will begin this summer, will dramatically enhance the 21,000-cap venue, expanding its infrastructure while adding innovative guest features. Further details will be released in the coming months.
The 27-year-old arena has a string of sell-out concerts lined up for 2022, including Billie Eilish, Dua Lipa, Diana Ross, Alicia Keys, Swedish House Mafia, Snoop Dogg and George Ezra.
“The first phase will enhance and increase our standing floor capacity”
“AO Arena is one of the world’s iconic venues and a much-loved part of Manchester’s rich culture and history,” says Chris Bray, EVP Europe at ASM Global. “It has been delivering world class entertainment experiences for over two decades. As we approach our 30th anniversary, this ambitious endeavour will not only reinforce its position as a leading destination for live entertainment but will extend its market leadership for ‘live’ and fan experiences for the next 30 years, and we’re proud to be further investing into the heart of Manchester.
“The first phase will enhance and increase our standing floor capacity to share this historic arena with even more of our guests and we will also be adding new hospitality lounges and investing in delivering an upgraded concourse experience. Our performers will be immersed in an all-new back of house artists campus, unparalleled anywhere.”
Additional major developments will include brand-new arena entrances, specially tailored premium experiences, custom designed lounges, and new premium seating.
“This will not only elevate the experience for guests and fans, but for everyone who sets foot in the venue”
AO Arena’s back of house will also be upgraded with a complete overhaul of the backstage experience, including new artist dressing rooms and production areas, a “world-class” green room with meet and greet facilities, an overhaul of crew catering, and first-class connectivity and technology.
“This is a really exciting time for the AO Arena,” adds recently appointed general manager Jen Mitchell. “Not only are we able to welcome guests back after a challenging two years, with a programme packed full of world-class acts and entertainment; now we can reveal the first phase of ASM Global’s plans for the arena’s redevelopment. This will not only elevate the experience for guests and fans, but for everyone who sets foot in the venue, including artists, production, crew and our staff who work so hard to make the magic happen right here in Manchester.”
AO Arena is set to face competition in the city from Oak View Group’s new east Manchester development Co-op Live, which is scheduled to open in 2023.
ASM Global hires Chris Bray as EVP, Europe
ASM Global has named 30-year veteran Chris Bray as its new EVP of European operations.
Bray who will be based in Manchester, UK, has a background in commercial, operations, entertainment and strategic development within the high-street retail, leisure and hospitality industries.
For the past six years, Bray has served as CEO for sports and leisure, UK & Ireland at global contract catering and facilities management company Sodexo.
“Chris has been responsible for a business portfolio tasked with delivering exceptional experiences at some of the most prestigious sporting and event locations across the UK such as Ascot Racecourse, Chelsea Flower Show, Brighton and Hove Albion FC, Newcastle United FC, as well as the National Gallery and other iconic day visitor experiences across the country,” says ASM Global president and CEO Ron Bension.
It’s an exciting time to be joining ASM Global as it accelerates its growth ambitions across the globe
“We’re confident that he will execute tremendous value creation, organic growth and new business initiatives.”
The move forms part of the venue management giant’s ongoing European expansion plans.
“It’s an exciting time to be joining ASM Global as it accelerates its growth ambitions across the globe,” says Bray. “Recent wins in Europe including Newcastle Gateshead Quays, Derby Arena, Cantu Arena and Södra Teatern are testament to the exceptional capabilities of our European teams and the confidence that our clients have in our ability to deliver innovative services and world-class live experiences for their guests.
“I am really looking forward to working with the teams to build upon the great work they have done.”
Bray succeeds John Sharkey, whose departure was announced in May. Sharkey joined ASM predecessor SMG in 2014 and was appointed ASM Global’s EVP for Europe in late 2019, following the completion of the merger between SMG and AEG Facilities.
The move comes days after the firm confirmed Jason Oberlander as chief commercial officer and made two new hires to its programming department.
Within Europe, ASM Global’s flagship venues include AO Arena in Manchester, Avicii Arena, Tele2 Arena and Friends Arena in Sweden and Koenig Pilsner Arena in Germany, which will become Rudolf Weber Arena in January 2022.